Interview - Mr Meat

Jarrod Clyne is a friend of mine who I once watched eat his way through a kilo of fillet steak, all in one sitting.  So you can imagine my surprise when Phil told me that Jarrod was, at one stage, a vegetarian.  Jarrod has an excellent sense of humour and he reminds me of all of the good things about people from the country, only he is really smart and has good taste.  Basically he is a stand up bloke.  He kindly agreed to share his story which, to me, just gets more and more interesting.

 

I was vegetarian for a year when I was at university, in 2004. I had thought about being a vegetarian for quite a while, and had long since decided that it was immoral to eat meat. I was practicing Zen Buddhism, and this was a major factor in my decision. Zen Buddhism doesn't focus very much on the moral precepts of Buddhism, and apparently the Buddha did occasionally eat meat, and he did not categorically forbid his disciples to eat meat. As a monastic religion relying on donations the monks were to gratefully receive and consume all food they were given, including meat. Consequently I was able to rationalise being Buddhist and eating meat for a long time, but eventually I felt that since I was not relying on alms (does living with your parents at the age of 23 count?) I should faithfully follow the first precept of Buddhism - 'Do not kill'. The Buddha told his followers not to kill, participate in killing or cause to have any living thing killed. A demand for meat obviously causes animals to be killed. I stopped eating all meat, including fish.

 

I had been on one week Zen Buddhist retreats with only vegetarian meals and hadn't found it particularly difficult. I was also already eating vegetarian meals for lunch, due to the University Hare Krisna Society serving delicious meals for $2 (all you can eat for $3!). Dinner was therefore the main challenge. I would describe myself as a very lazy vegetarian - I would just exclude the meat from a meal and subsitute a handful of peanuts, some eggs, or occasionally some chickpeas. I also ate an absurdly high amount of vegetarian pies. I ate hot chips pretty regularly too. Unsurprisingly I was fatter and less healthy as a consequence.

 

About one year and a quarter after my original decision I was travelling in Europe and Japan. My desire to eat meat returned quite strongly. I kept thinking of my old rationalisations as to why it was acceptable to eat meat. Vanity was also a factor, I felt that I would rather look good (eat protein, go to gym = more attractive) than be moral. The fork in the road came at a dinner at a bohemian buffet restaurant. The restaurant prided itself on a very extensive selection of vegetarian food, but also had a decent selection of meat dishes. I chose the meat and it was amazing.

 

I haven't ever seriously considered returning to being vegetarian. During a gym 'bulking' regime perhaps 90% of my food intake was red meat and I felt awesome. Eating meat is is very enjoyable, and and I find that if I don't eat any meat for dinner then I don't feel satiated at all. I still believe that it is morally wrong to eat meat - to cause suffering to living beings - but I'm relatively comfortable with that immorality, and the cost of being moral is just too high.

 

I like this part of The Prophet, by Kahlil Gibran. I think he's talking to a sheep he has just killed and will eat:

 

"By the same power that slays you, I
too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.
For the law that delivered you into my
hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand."

 

I believe that the most important goal in life is simply to enjoy your life. That may sound trite, selfish, or even unacceptably nihilisitc. I don't think that it is, and while I am mindful of the immorality of consuming meat, I do so because it helps me enjoy my life, and after all, eventually we too will all be consumed.

Interview - In the Beginning

Today's interview is with my friend Hannah Lloyd.  Hannah and I have been friends since we were in high school and she was the first vegetarian I ever met.  In fact, looking back, her decision to become a vegetarian was probably slightly scandalous in small town rural New Zealand.  I doubt that she really cared what anyone thought though.  She currently lives and works in Scotland.

What are your dietary restrictions? What animal products will you not eat?

 

I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian meaning that I eat dairy products and eggs but I exclude meat, poultry, and seafood from my diet. There are also other things I need to restrict from my diet too; for example, I need to avoid rennet and gelatine as these are derived from animal products.

Rennet is found in cheese and and is generally derived from calves; however, vegetarian cheeses contain rennet from bacterial or fungal sources.  Gelatine is a gelling agent and can be found in foods such as jelly, various sweets (including marshmallows!) and sometimes yoghurts and sour cream. 

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How long have these restrictions been in place?

I have been vegetarian for approximately 10 years - it’s very difficult to pinpoint an exact date though but it has been for at least 10 years.

What are the reasons for your diet?

I became a vegetarian for ethical reasons predominantly. I am very much an ‘animal lover’ and have always found it difficult to eat animals even as a child. I have difficulty disassociating the meat product from the animal itself.

What are people's reactions like when you tell them about your dietary restrictions?

People are very much interested in this and tend to be quite inquisitive and will ask me questions mostly about my reasons for being a vegetarian. It’s much more common that it used to be and is no real shock to people. When I first became a vegetarian in my teens it was much more unusual but I know plenty of vegetarians now.

How easy or difficult is it for you when you eat out?

 

I don’t really have any issues eating out at restaurants and cafes as a vegetarian. I live in Edinburgh and I did notice when I moved here almost 5 years ago that the availability of vegetarian foods is much better than in New Zealand. I’m actually quite spoilt for choice here in Edinburgh as there are 3 vegetarian restaurants. It’s always a real treat to go to a vegetarian restaurant but I must admit it’s very difficult to choose what to have when I can eat anything on the menu!

Otherwise restaurants generally have at least one vegetarian option available. I’m not a particularly fussy vegetarian and like a range of food so one option is sufficient for me. I do check ahead with restaurants before I go there, either by viewing the menu on-line or telephoning in advance, just to be certain that they do have a suitable vegetarian option.

With cafes it can be different as I have on occasion been into cafes for lunch and they’ve run out of vegetarian panino and sandwiches. This doesn’t happen too frequently and it’s easy enough to find another cafe so it’s never been an issue.

I would boycott any restaurant that did not offer a vegetarian option on the menu and I did need to do this recently. A restaurant recommended to me by a friend did not have any vegetarian mains on the menu despite having a huge selection of main meals.  When I enquired with the restaurant I was advised that they’d make a stir fry vegetarian for me. However, I avoided the restaurant as I certainly do not like to think that the restaurant felt they’d ‘whip up’ something. My view is that even non-vegetarians eat vegetarian food so having at least one available option is important.

When travelling abroad other considerations are required and it pays to be prepared. A vegetarian must be prepared by learning how to explain their dietary requirements in the language. Also note that the definition of a vegetarian can vary from country to country and this should always be researched before travel. For example; in France a vegetarian will generally eat fish so in France restaurants will refer to a dish as being vegetarian that actually contains seafood.

Do you miss the foods that you have cut out?

Not at all. Initially I did miss marshmallows initially but that was really about it. I certainly don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything.

Would you or have you ever actively encouraged others to adopt your dietary restrictions? Why or why not?

 

I believe that everyone has a right to choose what’s best for them. To be a vegetarian is my decision and I do not expect others to feel the same way I do. I have no issues dining with non-vegetarians and handling meat products either (I am happy to cook meat too!). However, if someone did express an interest to me about becoming a vegetarian I would certainly provide advice and guidance.

 I do believe that too much red meat in a diet is unhealthy so do encourage that people have meat free days from time-to-time for health reasons. In fact; I have read magazine articles recently about a new trend to be a ‘Flexitarian’. This means being a part-time vegetarian, for example; one might choose to be a vegetarian on certain days of the week or for 2 weeks per month.

What is your favourite food?

 

I have so many favourite foods it would be very difficult to say. I love eating falafels with hummus and salad in wraps or pita bread pockets. That makes for a nice and easy lunch or dinner. Couscous with roast vegetables is always great too and it’s winter here in Scotland I’ve been enjoying delicious wintery comfort food such as soup and vegetable casseroles.

Interview - Kim the Flexitarian

Today's guest post is from my friend Kim Lone, who is currently teaching in Vietnam. 

As the fourth of five kids, vegetarianism is nothing new in my family, it was one of those good, yet not really dangerous ways of being different and upsetting mum and dad.  I grew up in a family where at some stage at least one or two members were vegetarian. My dad has always been against it yet somewhat resigned.  There is still always the occasional "you sure you don't want some meat with that?". 

At the moment in my family, there is one vegetarian, one vegan, one who will only eat ethical meat, one meat lover, and me, the one that usually eats meat when I've been drinking.  It's been a long and drawn out process till I got to this stage.  The original reason why I became and occasional vegetarian (flexitarian if you want) was because I hated handling raw meat when cooking, and also possibly because I was a poor student so my diet consisted mainly of pasta, eggs and bread.  I grew up in the suburbs completely divorced from the process of how meat ends up in the supermarket.  If you are ever on a country road and get stuck behind a truck carrying sheep the smell is one of indescribable rancidity.  (Is rancidity a word?)  So I only ever ate meat if someone else cooked it.

A couple of years later I ended up living in a vegetarian flat [I'm pretty sure this was the same flat Kim lived in where the kitchen sink had a plaque above it saying that it used to belong to Katherine Mansfield, cool eh - Evealyn].  Which was sweet because my flatmate used to cook dinner every night.  Possibly the healthiest eating I have ever done in my life.  Every now and again I would get a craving and smuggle meat into the house.  If you ever want tips on meat smuggling, ask me.  If my flatmates ever caught me there were disappointed looks all round.  Possibly the worst was when my friend Fe gave me a can of spam for my 21st birthday (I had told her on some occasion that I had never eaten spam).  It was the odd can that just sat in the pantry and my flatmates thought it was funny and anyone who came round thought it was just weird.  Then there was one night when I came home ridiculously drunk and decided to have a fry up.  In went the spam.  My flatmates were so upset when they found out that I had used the frypan to cook meat.

After that I moved back home with my parents due to no money and no job.  My mums a mean cook and she would always cook for my dad so, I ate meat.  Lots of meat and it was tasty.  Its hard to be a vegetarian if you are extremely lazy like me and not big on cooking all the time.

And now I am living in Vietnam.  And it's a pretty sweet place to live.  My occasional vegetarianism has come into full swing here just because of the lack of refridgeration.  If any of you have been to South East Asia and been to the meat section of markets you will know what I am talking about.  Meat is left sitting out in the hot sun and the stench is unbelievable.  So now, for the most part I am a vegetarian apart form the occasional craving for that tasty tasty meat.  My figuring is that it is better being an occasional vegetarian than not even trying at all. 

I've met lots of vegetarians too, the ones who are accepting of your meat eating, the judgmental ones, the ones that eat fish and the animal rights activists who have framed photos of battery farmed chickens on their bedroom walls.  I have one friend who became a vegetarian and the age of 7.  She was watching Neighbours with her mum one day and just turned to her and said "I want to be a vegetarian".  Her mum said "Ok, but I'm not cooking two meals" so the whole family became vegetarian by default.  I also have a friend who agrees with the principles behind vegetarianism but can't get over the taste of meat.  So he has decided that what he will do when he dies is make his friends and family have a big barbeque and they have to eat him, hopefully starting a trend towards eating humans rather than other animals.

Interview - Vegetarian Showdown Part 2

A few days ago I posted a blog about Michael Keenan's original reasons for becoming vegetarian in 2007.  This is what he has to say about it now.

What were your dietary restrictions? What animal products did you not eat? How long were these restrictions in place?

I was vegetarian from October 2007 to March 2008. During that time I avoided all fish and meat products, but still ate milk and eggs. There were a few occasions where I ate meat, when otherwise the meat would have gone to waste. (The reason for this is that I considered that farming and killing animals might be immoral, so causing demand for that to occur is ethically questionable. It's the buying, not the eating, that causes the demand for farming and killing.)

What were people's reactions like when you tell them about your dietary restrictions?

If I recall correctly, no-one cared. My girlfriend at the time accepted it, and though she didn't become vegetarian herself, she ended up eating many vegetarian meals with me.

How easy or difficult was it for you when you eat out?

It was easy in America, and somewhat easy in Newcastle, England. I discovered interesting new food I hadn't tried before, like falafel and tofu. It would have been more difficult if I'd been a fussy eater, but I was happy to accept whatever vegetarian options were offered. This isn't to say my enjoyment of food didn't go down; it did. But it was logistically easy.

Did you miss the foods that you have cut out?

Yes! Especially chicken and pizzas with meat. And salami.

Would you or have you ever actively encouraged others to adopt your dietary restrictions? Why or why not?

I wrote a couple of emails about vegetarianism, and I sometimes talked to people about it in person, but only if they seemed interested in it. I didn't evangelize, because I wasn't very sure of my position that eating animals might be wrong.

What is your favourite food?

Pizza.

Interview - Vegetarian Showdown Part 1

I have never met Michael Keenan but he is one of Phil's oldest friends.  A few years ago he decided to become a vegetarian, and has been kind enough to provide me with some information about his thinking around this choice.  This post contains the email titled 'Vegetarian Showdown' that he sent his friends at the very beginning, asking them to give him some justification for meat eating that he could agree with.  Will they answer him?  Will he become vegetarian 4 life?  Answers to follow in a few days.

I keep encountering people I respect who have made an ethical decision to be vegetarian or vegan. These include old friends, like Mal and Nicola, and new people I have come to respect very quickly, like Bridget Sprouls, and people on the internet, like Steve Pavlina ( stevepavlina.com) and Tynan (betterthanyourboyfriend.com). When I was in Peru a couple of months ago, I ate a local Peruvian delicacy, a roasted guinea pig. I mentioned that to a vegetarian friend and she was shocked. It occurred to me that that was a pretty reasonable reaction. I didn't need to eat a guinea pig. It's more fun for me to watch a guinea pig run around and see how cute it is than to eat it, and I expect that the guinea pig would have felt the same way. I'm kind of a bad person.

That was twenty-four days ago. It occurred to me that the burden of proof that eating meat is ok is on the meat-eaters, and I don't have that proof. I stopped eating meat, pending an actual really consistent moral justification. And I want that justification, I want it very badly, because animals are delicious. Meat-eaters, this email is an appeal to you to please change my mind. Vegetarians, this is an invitation to check my reasoning and clear up some moral gray areas described later.

In sixteenth-century Paris, a popular form of entertainment was cat-burning, in which a cat was hoisted in a sling on a stage and slowly lowered into a fire. According to historian Norman Davies, "[T]he spectators, including kings and queens, shrieked with laughter as the animals, howling with pain, were singed, roasted, and finally carbonized." - http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html

Today, we properly recognize that cat-burning is totally f*cked up. It's really bad for the cat, and it provides only a mild benefit (sadistic pleasure) to humans. The difference between cat-burning, which almost everyone would say is immoral, and eating animals, which society is generally ok with, is not very clear. The benefit to humans in eating meat - the pleasure of tasting meat - is trivial and replacable, not significantly more noble (as I see it) than the benefit in watching a cat burn.

As for the harm to the animal, battery farming is probably a worse harm than live roasting. But even if we had an ideal animal life - a happy cow grazing in pastures and humping its cow girlfriend - do we really have the right to interrupt all that and kill it for meat? It's not clear to me that we do have that right. It's not especially clear that we *don't* have that right, but given that all that's at stake here is the deliciousness of steak, I have to concede that, absent a clear moral go-ahead, I ought to become vegetarian, pending a real decision.

I suspect that that's where I'll be for the rest of my life - an interim vegetarian, waiting to figure out whether cows's lives are human property. If someone could tip me one way or the other, I'd appreciate it.

I still have questions about gray areas: very stupid animals; and veganism. I hope that someone who has thought about it more, or just has a different perspective, can offer some ideas.

Suppose we assume that it's wrong to eat cows and chickens, because they have lives that are important to them, they feel pain, and they're reasonably smart. They differ from, for example, broccoli, in those ways. What about *really* dumb animals? I think there might be a useful moral line to be drawn between cow-level animals, and animals that are about as robotic as bacteria - little mindless robots. I'm unconcerned by the death of a mosquito. Mosquitoes have no friends and maybe are not really aware they're alive. What about fish? Their behavior is somewhat robotic. Computers can model fish behavior very convincingly. Shrimps are just big, delicious mosquitoes, right? So it's ok to kill shrimps? We might care about collateral damage from some fishing methods (like catching dolphins in nets) but shrimps are farmed. For the moment, I'm not eating shrimps, but that's very precautionary.

The next question is veganism: assuming I don't have the right to take a cow's life, can I take its milk? One might say that it is right to let a cow run free in its natural environment, but thousands of years of selective breeding have changed domestic cows into creatures that *need* to be milked, otherwise they get uncomfortable (if I have my facts right). A farm is their new natural environment. And sheep get too hot in summer if they don't get their wool shaved off. And chickens are going to lay unfertilized eggs anyway, whether we eat them or not, so we might as well eat them. I don't see much of an ethical obligation to be a vegan, but I'm willing to be convinced.

One final thing: the problem is that killing animals might be wrong, not that eating animals is wrong. As I see it, once an animal is dead, you might as well eat it. If I were economically illiterate, it would be easy to say that I'll just only buy the meat of already-dead animals, but it's obvious that creating demand for meat kills animals, so I can't do that. The exception is that if there's meat that would go to waste, like it's leftover from some heartless meat-eater's meal, then I could eat that. Or if - as happened a couple of weeks ago - a meat-eater bought food for me, not knowing I was now a vegetarian, then it would be fine to eat that rather than throw it away. Does anyone disagree, finding that not only is killing animals wrong, but also eating meat is wrong in itself?

Interview - A Real Live One

Nimish Gautam is a friend of mine from my days in a first year university hostel. Being the token American exchange student, he would often get a bit overwhelmed at the possibilities of being in a country where the drinking age was 18 and absinthe was easy to get hold of. We would often wake up on Sunday mornings to several incomprehensible text messages and voicemails from a very drunk Nimish, who, having attempted to walk home from one bar or another, had got himself lost and ended up sleeping at the waterfront. He is one of the funniest people I have ever met.

Once upon a time, many eons ago when I was a wee little Nimish (so maybe when I was 13 or so), I realized animals were cute and furry. I thought they were so cute and furry that I shouldn't eat them, because that would cause so much pain and suffering on the cute furry creatures. So I abstained from eating meat. Also, it helped that my mom was a vegetarian, so the only real meat I'd ever had was school cafeteria meat. Most would argue that means I've never actually eaten meat in my life.

Anyways, the transition was pretty easy. Later, as I grew up, I revisited my original rationale. I thought about it and realized that if I were on a desert island and there was a squirrel and me, and that squirrel was 30x my size, he'd probably not think I was so cute and furry. He'd probably eat me. I decided then and there that if it ever came down to me and a squirrel in a life-or-death situation, that squirrel is going down. Strangely enough, for this reason I genuinely respect people who hunt their own food. I feel like that's honorable, and because it's so much effort, it discourages you from wastefully or needlessly hunting things. Besides, we have the ability to process meat, so why not use it, right?

Thing is, I don't have that ability so much anymore. The same way people become lactose intolerant after staying away from dairy for too long, your body can become 'heavy meat' intolerant. A few years back I accidentally had a bite of ham, and the results weren't pretty. I don't really have motive to go back because I get my protein and iron from the rest of my diet.

Honestly though, I haven't totally precluded meat from my diet. For instance, a few years back I realized I've never had shrimp. What if it turns out shrimp is like this amazing delicious wonderful food that people spend years perfecting and dedicating their lives to, and I missed out on it because 13-year-old me mistakenly thought it was cute and furry? (Apparently, *good* shrimp isn't cute *or* furry) So I tried it. Didn't like it. But now I know. Same with other random 'exotic' foods when they're presented. If I'm genuinely curious, I'll go for it, but I really haven't found anything I like much, except sushi on occasion. So I guess I'm a vegetarian with a little star(fish) disclaimer =)

What are people's reactions like when you tell them about your dietary restrictions?


Well, if they don't know any better, they think I'm being snooty or just too picky, like I'm saying "oh, I only eat food grown on the northern part of the field in the shade of fresh mango trees picked at midnight" Sometimes they think I just won't notice. When I put it more in terms of a food allergy or lactose intolerance, they get the picture and are more understanding.


How easy or difficult is it for you when you eat out?


It's really strange, I've gotten used to going to restaurants and looking for the 1 or 2 vegetarian options and choosing from that. Usually they can make certain dishes without the meat, especially in Mexican restaurants where beans can be substituted for beef in most foods.

When I go to vegetarian restaurants, it actually takes me much longer to figure out what I want b/c I'm not used to the choice. It's a little weird, but enh, I've gotten used to it.


Would you or have you ever actively encouraged others to adopt your dietary restrictions? Why or why not?


Only if the person seems to have unhealthy eating habits to begin with. All of our bodies are different, and what works for me probably won't work for other people. If you're taking care of yourself, feel good and healthy, stick with what you're doing. If not, maybe watch what you put in there and see if that makes it better.


What is your favourite food?


Mostly, I like Italian food, like pizza and pasta, especially covered in cheese!